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[loneranger]

I read a couple of posts made by people that had a optimizer 250 and some of the problems they have had.
I built my own hot water heater about 15 years ago and was forced by insurance companies to change to a certified heater even though I had great reviews from inspectors.
I decided that the downdraft Optimizer 250 was the best built and lowest emissions stove and bought one. Total cost by the time I had it running was about $17,000, me doing the work.
I expected a learning curve and was willing to go through a few problems to get there, but after almost 4 years I am writing because I am not happy. I like the efficiency and the quality of the build but don't like many other things about the stove.
The fellows threads that I read where problems with creosote coming out the firebox door. I thought that my wood was not good enough because it is not hardwood, but to hear of guys burning hardwood having creosote problems tells me there is a design problem for sure with this stove.
I have talked to Rory and Brian Martin the fellow showing the stove on u tube. They have both told me it is just the air settings and possibly my wood not being dry enough.
I am using the driest Fir, Larch mix that is possible, have birch/fir for next winter. Still creosote and water coming out of my fan collector box. When you add wood, unless the stove has burned almost out you get a blast of fire and smoke while doing so and cleaning the vertical 2" pipes coming off the refractory are designed to give a person a really good work out and skinned knuckles.  If I kick the bucket my wife will never be able to clean them.
I have another problem to address, the special brick that goes from the fire box to refractory is disintegrating. Good thing I bought a spare with the furnace.

[slimjim]

Let's see, 4 years and I don't think we have ever spoken, that's to bad as maybe I could have helped, at this point I don't think I can as you seem to have made your mind up that somebody put the screws to you.

[James]

Come on slim. Give the guy a chance to vent. Perhaps he's never even heard of you.

To be totally honest, if it weren't for your help and guidance...well, to put it nicely between me and my wife, we would have GIVEN our stove back to P&M by now. You know you've talked me off that ledge at least a dozen times. Maybe this guy needs/wants some of the same help.

From a guy who's been there.

[hondaracer2oo4]

Slim will help you the best he can if you are willing to listen. Welcome to the board, now lets see if we can get your furnace working like it should be! I do not own a gasser but from everything I have ever read, there are wear items. Like a car that you have to replace the tires every 50,000 miles because they wear from driving on the road the refractory nozzle that you are referring to is the same as tires on a car. The more fuel(or miles) that you put through the unit the sooner you will have to replace the nozzle(tires). So this is perfectly normal and is to be expected when buying a gasser. I am not familiar with burning 'larch' or 'fir' but I am going to go out on a ledge here and guess that these types of wood, even with low water moisture content, have some saps and other things inside the wood that cause creosote build up. I bet if you switched to another type of wood, say dry beech or dry oak you would have your creosote problems go away. As far as cleaning the unit I have heard of people making up some tools to make the job easier. Namely a brush that attaches to the end of a cordless drill. Simply push the brush through the exchanger tube, spin up the brush and pull out while spinning. Good luck .

[loneranger]

I talked to Brian a couple of times in the first season. Don't know whom you are. Brian on the u tube video is not very accurate, he told me I needed to burn nice dry hardwood, so I got some really well seasoned birch. It was a bit better but nothing like he had the stove running, wiping the ash off the inside of the firebox door . He ran the stove himself and said it took a while to find out exactly what the air setting were. I have worked at getting them to what I feel are optimum but high humidity is not this stoves friend. I was also told that the stove could be run on solar. Foolish me all I had to do was add up the amount of watts used per day and the amount of sunny days we have, even with my huge battery bank and 390 watt solar panels I cant run the stove for more than 2 days and my inverter is squealing. This the BC not the prairies where the sun shines more in he winter. The stove I built was naturally aspirated and updraft. This stove would be much more efficient if the refractory was behind the firebox. The vertical 2" pipes could be made easier to brush out, I am sure. The absolutely best thing about the stove is I will never hear my neighbours complain about wood smoke smell. One of my neighbours has a updraft stove and you can smell smoke when it first gets going.
Just read your new post Slim and James, thank you. I would have to truck oak or beach in, not an option. There is some birch around here. I own 160 acres of hill side. About 2% birch. I could use all birch and be out in 1 to 2 years.
Believe me I know about wear and tear. I am was a diamond drill contractor and built almost all my own equipment and did all my own repairs. Like I said I built my own stove. 10 to 20% more wood is easier and less expensive than this stove PERIOD.

[James]

loneranger -

Why don't you post a list of your problems and maybe we can knock 'em out one by one?  I don't know if slim'll be real happy with me writing this - but if there was ever a problem to be had with the 250, I've experienced it.  Seriously.  To his credit, though, he's been the one to help me through pretty much all of them.  Then there are a number of guys who think this stove is the cat's meow because they've never had even one problem with theirs.

So, what I'm trying to suggest is that between the bunch of us, maybe we can get you back going again?!

[coolidge]

Do you have the new style door on your airbox or a bunch of sheetmetal screws? What are your air settings now? How bad is the nozzle? What is your heat load on the boiler? As randy said, we can get you going in the right direction, we just need some info from you.

[loneranger]

Thanks for the offer of help.
I could still not be doing something quite right and someone could give me a suggestion to steer me out of my grief.

I have mentioned my problems un my posts.

The flames and smoke coming out the door when adding wood is likely the worst. I can put up with lots but when it happens to my wife it really gets me upset.

I have been cleaning the stove every week this year and it really helps. I used to do it every second week. The horizontal pipe is easy and hasn't ever given me any problems. Once I had to use a tiger torch to burn some creosote out of the horizontal pipes. The wood was pitchy fir and even with the down draft second burn it caused problems.

The vertical pipes probably since that episode have been very hard to run the brush through. I tried to burn the remaining crust out of the 2" vertical pipes but no success. The original cable brush rod is very bent now from my pushing and pulling the brush through. I have built a 1/2 pipe rod that works well on the horizontal and I have tried to make work for the vertical pipes but the collector above the pipes makes everything difficult. I built another cable rod and attached it to my drill but the torque was too much for the cable. In the spring I plan on soaking the vertical pipes with diesel and hopefully cleaning out this baked on creosote.

My fan collector cover is held on with 5/16 screws. A couple of these got so rusty I had to replace them already, but that is not a big deal. What is is the fact that creosote builds up in the air box on the top of the firebox and runs down into the fan collector causing the fan air damper to stick shut and not open. I have had to clean this out twice this winter, the last time this morning. That is why I came to this site, pissed. The last time I cleaned it out I drilled a 1/8 hole in the air damper to allow air to in to keep the fire going because it was dyeing if the stove had no demand for over 2 hours. I also adjusted my thermostats in out 2 buildings so that one or the other would demand heat within 2 hours. But when the weather is around 0 there isn't demand to have the stove cut in. I also adjusted the water temp differential to 2 degrees from4. I think this may cause more creosote because the fire box doesn't have time to get good and hot. It was happening before though too and we don't have to go out and light the fire as often now.

If we lived in an area with more hardwood it would likely be better but you have to deal with what you have.

So if you guys can think of anything that may help please post.

Thanks

[jreimer]

Hi loneranger,

Do you know what your heat load is?  Setting a differential at 2 or even 4 degrees to keep the fire from going out seems like you have a very light load.  I have never had my fire die out even when it has been sitting 6 or more hours.  I have never run a lower differential than 10 degrees.

A very light heat load may be a root of many of your creosote and other issues. 

I'm on my second winter and pushed many cords through my stove already.  This is a great place to learn and by golly we need each other's expertise!

Every stove has it's finicky issues but together I think we can solve them.

[slimjim]

Thanks guys for the encouraging words, I had a bad start to the day,it has something to do with counting on a 23 year old to be where he is supposed to be but not, ever been there? Loneranger, if you are willing to try, I would put money on it that WE can make it happen, the stove is a piece of machinery, it will work if you let it, would you like to try?

[willowbk]

loneranger
i too feel your pains,but i'm seeing some light at the end of the tunnel. this is my first season w/ a 250 and it is a huge learning curve.  this site has been a tremendous help as well as slim.  to be brutally honest, if not for his help i think there would be multiple(mine included)250's sitting on brian martins front door. from all the post i've read on the 250, that rear airbox cover needs to be updated to new one as well as the front door gaskets need to be updated to the silcone style. slim can assist with that.  from my experience, i try not to leave loading door or lower door open to long as it causes smoke and moisture to build in rear airbox. if i'm cleaning the stove i actually take that cover off and that has helped alot w/ the discoloring and build up in the box.  the new gaskets were a big help as well. as far as nozzle issues-good luck. my nozzle is totally worn out after 3 months and i played by the rules w/ it. i will save my honest comments for a bit longer, but i have sent brian martin 2 emails w/ pictures in the last 3 weeks and i haven't got one response, i told him at least get back to me and tell me to pound sand,at least it would be something. if you read some post by coolidge he has some good insights on using fire bricks as a fix above old nozzle.  hang in there-we are all in portage and main therapy sessions.
ps also agree 100% w/ you on smoke/fire issues out front loading door. trimmed my beard more than once!

[hondaracer2oo4]

Are you guys getting these flare ups out of the front door when the fan is running? If so just put a switch on the front of the unit that cuts power to everything. Flip the switch off when you are about to load, flip it back on when your done.

[slimjim]

In reality Honda, the flareups occur when the loading door is opened with the blower off, there is no air coming in and then you open the door resulting in flashback, less smoke and no flashback occurs when the blower is on as it is giving the fire the air it needs, much more predictable, remember there is a lot of refractory brick lining in our unit that creates those gases, leaving the blower on helps control those gases

[willowbk]

slim
exactly right, i usually check temp prior to opening front door if fan isnt running just for that reason. a few bad timings and stove had just shut off and i opened the door. that will wake you up in the morning!!

[hondaracer2oo4]

Got it, lack of oxygen in the fire triangle. Then instead of adding a switch to cut the blowers I would suggest adding an over ride switch to turn the blower on prior to loading. Or just back away with the door in front of you as you are opening it and wait for the smoke to either light off or dissipate and then go about your loading. No offense ranger but sometimes I have a hard time wrapping my head around peoples 'complaints' like this. If you want a heating device that is highly controlled install a gas oil boiler in the house and call the gas guy to come fill up your tank. If you want to save a lot of money and be self sufficient then you have to understand you are working with a piece of machinery that can't be made fail safe. Would you complain about your gas powered wood splitter cutting your hand off because you left your hand in front of the ram when you pulled the lever?