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[NaturallyAspirated]

Everything is there in the picture. Doesn't anyone know what a thermoblock is?

That's the part that I missed.  It makes sense now.   

Neal

[martyinmi]

Yoder, I repaired more than I install and I've installed more than you've quoted.
Rather than saying its wrong, how about asking why, knowing and understanding why its wrong. Just because it looks different doesn't mean it is.

Ummmmm........What brand(s) of outdoor wood fired unpressurized hydronic furnaces/boilers do you sell? How many outdoor installs have you done?
Yoder asked a few very simple questions, right? How's about some answers?
You seem to go out of your way to attempt to belittle folks who frequent this site. I'm guessing that there are a few issues you are dealing with in your personal life? Inferiority complex? Some type of envy?
What is the name of your business?
How many years in the business?

I'm going to be in the Brown City area soon. I'd sure like to see your business and some of your installs!!!

[Scott7m]

Yoder, I repaired more than I install and I've installed more than you've quoted.
Rather than saying its wrong, how about asking why, knowing and understanding why its wrong. Just because it looks different doesn't mean it is.

Ummmmm........What brand(s) of outdoor wood fired unpressurized hydronic furnaces/boilers do you sell? How many outdoor installs have you done?
Yoder asked a few very simple questions, right? How's about some answers?
You seem to go out of your way to attempt to belittle folks who frequent this site. I'm guessing that there are a few issues you are dealing with in your personal life? Inferiority complex? Some type of envy?
What is the name of your business?
How many years in the business?

I'm going to be in the Brown City area soon. I'd sure like to see your business and some of your installs!!!

Thanks Marty, the folks who have always helped on here are all starting to say it's not worth it anymore because of stuff like this.  If he doesn't even have anything to do with outdoor wood boilers and also thinks there junk because they don't have lambda controls or whatever, then what exactly is he doing.   

I appreciate different points of view and learning different ways but some of this is sooo far from what we see 99% of the time it's a struggle. 

God bless the poor soul struggling to pay his utilities when he logs on and sees diagrams like that and thinks that's what he needs to heat his home. .  It would be like yea, no thanks, I'm done here

[idahohay]

Sceptre, thanks for the reply, I understand your using the single pump to a fphe on the DHW loop and your make up water gets heated. Will the pump run 24/7 or some how come on when it senses flow? Any thoughts? Slimjim?

[slimjim]

  OK guys, i'm going to try and be my German,very patient as well as brilliant and very understanding wife.  Sprinter, this drawing in my understanding has absolutely nothing to do with any installation of any Outdoor Wood Boiler that I have ever had the pleasure of being involved with. I may be missing something and if I am then please forgive me as I am simply a simple and quite happy man that has very little formal education, I do not read a great deal and this forum is about as computer savvy as I get, you post some very interesting links and to be honest I do not have the time to follow them all, I do appreciate them as they do help folks and yes you do piss some folks off, I am not one of those people and certainly do not wish to see  us all jumping on your crap, I do have the ability to learn and I will challenge the rest of us regulars to do the same if there is a better way than the way we are all doing it today, if it makes sense I love to spend money on fancy stuff that makes my system look great but I first have to justify it to my customer, I'm not great with math so you may have to hold my hand with that part a bit but I'm willing to learn. For the rest of us, we will all make mistakes that don't make sense to others and I can only hope that the next group of guru's does not jump on us as we have with Sprinter, I feel a bit responsible for being one of the first and for that Sprinter I do apologize, I do think that I could have handled it a bit differently, perhaps more professionally, I guess I felt it to be more like a bunch of guys sitting at a bonfire of car tires, drinking beer and talking shop.  Motto of the story is, Do unto others as you would have done to you, Spoken as a Libertarian and not a self righteous right wing conspiracy theorist, THANK GOD FOR SPELL CHECK

[Scott7m]

Well said Slim

You will have to understand folks don't take well to belittling over and over and it always seemingly coming from a Google search, one has to really wonder what or why on earth someone is going about things this way.   Sprinter in his time here has made a couple posts I learned something in, but more so than not he's simply said were all idiots without saying, "your all idiots". 

I think you slim would have to understand how a nice would feel if he came here searching for honest help, stumbles upon someone saying we're all idiots and this is how it's done.  Most folks would stop right at the diagram itself and say no way not for me this is worse than I imagined

The systems we do most of the time are quite simple, Slim you do a lot of complex systems as they tend to be far more of that style applications the further north and east we travel.   Most folks have a simple forced air hookup across middle America and we may see the occasional boiler.  Knowing we kept boiler protection in mind when sizing the applications and making sure the home was being heated without causing damage to the boiler results in many happy customers.  I truly believe if folks need half of the stuff in that diagram, well someone else can do it.

[idahohay]

Scott, I too feel like I have learned from Sprinters posts.  I was hoping he would come back to discuss his diagram further.  I knew I had seen it somewhere, it is from page 37 in issue # 10 in Caleffi's Idronics magazine.  Not that you couldn't use the diagram to illustrate a different point, but if you go back a page in the publication the section is about the use of buffer tanks in conjunction with low mass boilers and in this case, the focus was on the mod/con auxiliary boiler and how the buffer tank helped to prevent short cycling. Interesting stuff so I guess it would be like going as far as Calculus in math, maybe never using it but ending up being dam good at addition and subtraction.

[sceptre74]

Sceptre, thanks for the reply, I understand your using the single pump to a fphe on the DHW loop and your make up water gets heated. Will the pump run 24/7 or some how come on when it senses flow? Any thoughts? Slimjim?

Actually, I'm not real sure how that is all going to be hooked up just yet. We haven't gotten that far into discussion yet. I may start another topic soon just for that

[slimjim]

Good question Idahohay, I normally use a sidearm that uses the existing circ on the outdoor loop but in this case Sceptre is choosing a flat plat and it's circ will need to be controlled, If he uses an electric hot water tank then the existing aqua stat on the tank could be used to maintain a minimum temp in the tank or an added aqua-stat on the hot water line to sense a drop in temp, break on rise or normally closed terminals would work, I would also suppose that he could use the circ on the open system that runs constant to guarantee the temps on the domestic, several choices there, this choice it would seem to me would be questionable as I think the flow would suffer with a 20 plate, what do some of you guys think?

[yoderheating]

COLD BEER! Obama style! Everyone get together and drink it out. 

[NaturallyAspirated]

Group hug!

Neal

[idahohay]

Thanks Sceptre and Slimjim.  I've been heating all winter with a 19x20 water to air heat exchanger with a fan behind it and now have drywalled all around it. It needs to come out and my infloor hooked up so I can get the interior done.  My original plan was to flow through a sidearm first then a fphe but this was going to be a challenge,  all taking place in a tiny bathroom under a stairway.  My plan now is to use close spaced tees in the supply from the OWB before the fphe, and pump to still another fphe for the DHW.  I happened to have two 006 stainless pumps so I'm looking into using them both at the same time, controlled by w/h temperature hoping to just set my desired temperature and forget it.  I will also be able to bypass the main fphe in the off season and still heat my DHW with the boiler loop if needed.

Just wanted to add, my reason for using the FPHE in the first pace was so I could use 30% glycol in my floor loops.  My owb is only 85 gallons so if I leave in the winter it would be fairly simple to drain out.

[Sprinter]

That's all it should be yoder, beers around the campfire, there is nothing I typed that I wouldn't say in person. I know people are different in parts of the country, but these forums never do a conversation justice. 

http://www.econoburn.com/images/PDF-Covers/NYSERDA-Hidley-Farm-Case-Study.pdf

http://www.econoburn.com/images/PDF-Covers/Integrating-Wood-Water.pdf

http://www.econoburn.com/index.php/resources.html


Wow, pretty funny. How some see things. I guess if you feel you were belittled , you were probably expecting it. But the rest read along and learned. See if I just post all my own personal stuff, people discredit it as a bad idea or wrong info. (Already doing that to pics from calefi's wood hydronics book.)So I post info and links from the best accredited hydronic professionals in the trade on wood boilers for people to learn on their own and make their own opinions or decisions. Take or leave it, I post facts and info people can research on their own for them to decide. It could stop right there. Or you could reply with snide remarks and excuses, instead of questions and data.

I'll will admit I am definitely Type A personality and I pride myself in doing the absolute best for my customers. But I have hard data and being licensed in the trade for 20 plus years, first hand experience working with all kinds of boilers not just one type. Any one else here licensed in the trade by the state? Yet I'm the one that has to prove my credentials? It will never be enough to make those who don't wanna be happy.

Heating with hot water is a very basic simple concept, 1. Heat source 2. Conveyor system 3. Emitters  4. Controls.   that's it, ALWAYS.  Anything can be figured out with manufacturer specs and charts.

I'm always about saving money and being very efficient, I donate and work on habitat for humanity projects in the past. So saying I'm using stuff only the rich can afford, simply isn't true. It's mostly farms, rural, suburban with some bigger cities spread out. The majority of customers are not white collar. I don't push useless equipment, I educate them, we'll calculate out the costs or ROI right there for them to decide. It's their money and a big investment, I want them to know why and for them to decide.

Idaho, yeah you got it, it's from Calefi's wood boiler hydronics edition. That design is applicable to almost all resi installs. You don't have to have the buffer or a FPHE. Multi boilers don't effect it either, because of the way it's piped. You could add or subtract at will. No where am I saying your system HAS to be like this or that. But if you want increased efficiency, more reliability you will need a little more than a one loop brochure design. It is intentionally made to look very easy in brochures as to not discourage sales. And even the manufacturer will say its not the most efficient design.

Isn't the goal to be efficient and reliable

[martyinmi]

 

http://www.econoburn.com/images/PDF-Covers/NYSERDA-Hidley-Farm-Case-Study.pdf

http://www.econoburn.com/images/PDF-Covers/Integrating-Wood-Water.pdf

http://www.econoburn.com/index.php/resources.html

 Any one else here licensed in the trade by the state? Yet I'm the one that has to prove my credentials? It will never be enough to make those who don't wanna be happy.

I wanna be happy!!!

So far, as far as my feeble little brain can comprehend anyways, I can gather three major things that you are a fan of:

1) Indoor gasification hydronic pressurized boilers that employ mass storage.

2) Copying and pasting.

3) Using said copied and pasted to materials in a manner which makes your head swell, which feeds your ego and makes you appear to YOURSELF to be a bunch more pertinent and important to a group of folks who can easily see you for the pompous arsh that you've(you) become(are).

Again,

What brand(s) of unpressurized wood fired hydronic furnaces/boilers do you sell?

How many installs of above have you done?

What is the name of your business?

Did I leave anything out?

We've all shown you ours. Lets have a look see at yours!

 

[sceptre74]

Yes, I'm using an electric hot water tank. Would it make sense to put the mixing valve on the make up water in-between the fphe and tank or put it in the out bound hot water to the rest on the house?
Not to sure what is the best way to have the circ hooked up. What do you all think I should do